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Posted by: Aidenag 1 year, 9 months agoThere is something un-American about a government program that uses secret criteria to collect dossiers on innocent people and shares that information with various agencies, all without any oversight. It's the sort of thing you'd expect from the former Soviet Union or East Germany or China. And it doesn't make us any safer from terrorism.
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Aidenag
Photographer by day, news junkie by night. My main areas of interest are politics and the environment. If you have any questions, problems, or suggestions ...
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Comments: 92
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geographer47
Dec. 28, 2006, 11:58 a.m.Bottom line: We have an expensive, inefficient police-state database. "After five years and $100 million spent, the program still can't achieve the simple task of matching airline passengers against terrorist watch lists." And at the same time the Automated Targeting System makes hundreds of thousands of mistakes a year involving innocent travelers.
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ETproductions
Dec. 29, 2006, 1:49 a.m.And your point here would be...
Out of 431 Million travelers, the US spent $100 million to stop the terribly dangerous ex Pop Star, Cat Stevens from traveling. Somehow, that doesn't leave me feeling a whole lot safer tonight.
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BravoSierra
Dec. 29, 2006, 1:18 a.m.The thousands of mistakes a year is not a problem, depending upon what you do to the individuals that are false positives. In creating a screen for something deadly, like HIV, you want the screen to catch all the true positives, i.e. people who are really ill even at the expense of many false positives, i.e. people who are mistakenly diagnoses. The ATS should catch all terrorists and if it does so, it's ok for there to be many people falsely identified AS LONG AS you don't lock up or shoot all the people mistakenly identified as terrorists without charges, right to appear in court, etc. It's not the screen itself that is the problem, it's the application of any laws that violate a citizen's rights to due process when identified as a suspect that are the problem.
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berkeley
Dec. 28, 2006, 12:01 p.m.and as he said, it's a colossal waste of money. congress has been out-to-lunch in terms of oversight. good article.
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psydoc
Dec. 28, 2006, 4:03 p.m.What next? If your score gets too high, secret death squads?
This is just plain un-American. Wasn't there a huge outcry about President Clinton keeping secret dossiers on his political enemies? This is far worse. This is a dossier on everyone that travels outside of the U.S.
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BravoSierra
Dec. 28, 2006, 11:41 p.m.psydoc is correct. The science on profiling individuals is that they are invalid. In fact, they are so invalid that it is illegal for the professionalis who do profiling best (psychologists) to testify as to a person's "dangerousness" in a court of law. So, if the science is so bad that those who are best at it can't predict an individual's behavior, then exactly what basis does the government have for profiling people? Yes, it is much worse than Clinton keeping track of adversaries. If the profiles are invalid in the first place then we know the judgments of who gets the midnight visit, hwo gets thrown into a secret prison without charges are arbitrary and designed to suit someone's political and personal agenda. I thought we were done with witch hunting but apparently not.
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jordan11
Dec. 29, 2006, 12:13 a.m.This is a dossier on everyone that travels outside of the U.S.>>>>>
And I'm one of them. I don't have sense enough to be afraid of it. But I sure am p*ssed about it!
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BravoSierra
Dec. 29, 2006, 1:08 a.m.Understood and agreed. I just like to be mindful of the risks for misuse. Few people understand the science behind database analysis and what is and isn't valid. Starting a Salem-style witch hunt would be easy. I don't mind them so much watching me as combining it with laws that let them hold me without charge. It's not the watching that is scary it's the combination of about half-dozen laws that have been put in place that could be easily misused that concern me. I know they watch where I go, they stamp it in my passport. That's not new. I've done database analysis for the past 6 years on projects for 40 major fortune 500 companies. Most of their algorithms for profiling customers are invalid. But after spending $40 million on SAP or some package with SAS on top of it do you think any of them tell their CFOs that they just wasted $40 million? No, instead they invent invalid profiles to show their CEO and CFO. Government beaurocrats will do the same thing.
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walden3
Dec. 28, 2006, 5:01 p.m.What's unamerican about it? It seems the very essence of american under so-called small government republican leadership. Beside being an inefficient use of resources, it has nothing to do with making the people safer. You can bet your last cent that some company has a multi-million dollar contract. You can bet that his data compiling company contributes to republican causes. And lastly, you can bet your life that our private information is being used by those in power for political means to keep them in power.
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BravoSierra
Dec. 28, 2006, 10:41 p.m.Bush has already essentially called anyone who disagrees with him "unpatriotic"...well if you are "unpatriotic" you are clearly aiding and abetting the enemy...well...that makes you the next best thing to a "terrorist" and the next step is to hold you indefinitely without charges. Bush has set very dangerous precedents. As for technology like this working. nearly every major company tries to take all our shopping behavior, segment us and force feed ads and products on us based upon our profiles. They can barely make it work cost-effectively and that's using data that is willfully given. The chances of it working on genuine terrorists who are not only giving the data willfully but are trying to hide and distort it are pretty slim.
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AJaye
Dec. 28, 2006, 6:04 p.m.Oh my !!!They are more worried about our own citizens than the millions of illegals here..Seems big bro is here or maybe just King George..BOO BUSH
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BravoSierra
Dec. 28, 2006, 10:55 p.m.What's so amazing is that the concept of the Social Contract isn't that hard to get. Democrats want to extend rights given to US citizens who have joined in the social contract to murdering terrorists, illegal aliens and others who have not joined us in our social contract as citizens and Republicans want to deprive us of our rights by spying on us and saving us from ourselves. Both positions are wrong. It's rather frightening that politicians from both parties are too ignorant and too poorly educated on Locke, Hume, Rousseau, Bentham, Mill, Madison, Franklin, and a dozen other authors critical to understanding the social contract that is the basis of who "We the People" are and the deal we have struck with one another as citizens. Most people in both parties need to be sent back to high school civics classes and college level Western Civ classes and pass the tests before they can be elected again.
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Teech
Dec. 28, 2006, 6:31 p.m.All part of the Bushstapo plan! The transformation from a republic to a corporate ruled, facist state. Republicans run on a campaign of "smaller government" and then increase its size exponentially. They promise "tax cuts"....but only to the richest Americans who need it least, and the money comes from what used to be a balanced budget which is now trillions in debt. And then, using lies and manipulated intelligence, Republicans complete the looting of America by spilling the blood of our youth as the corporate war profiteers get even richer....as they conveniently can't account for 20 billion here, and 10 billion there. This administration will ooze out of office with billions in their off-shore accounts, while a bankrupt nation struggles for generations to pay their debts.
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AlexsGirl
Dec. 28, 2006, 7:27 p.m.the goverment sucks. we're not protected. we're all just little puppets that they can play with whenever they want. & then they try convincing us otherwise. & what is still so funny to me is the fact that so many people are against bush...& probably didnt vote for him....yet he made it into office. can you say rigged??? what kind of system is that if we really in actuality dont have the power to even coose our president?? I know we don't. it's all crooked. & theres nothing we can do about it. & they know about every little thing we do. they need to spend all that time & effort watching over our real enemies. oh, wait a minute....one of them is the president. lol
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philanthropist
Dec. 28, 2006, 7:40 p.m.It's McCarthyism all over again! Haven't we learned from our historical blunders yet?
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samsara15
Dec. 28, 2006, 8:25 p.m.It's Republicanism, plain and simple, with a little bit of the wrong parts of Ayn Rand. 'Terrorism' has become the new 'socialism', and there is nothing they will not do to stop it. Never mind if the protections become as dangerous as the problem.
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contrast
Dec. 28, 2006, 8:53 p.m.Well personally I have nothing to hide and if the government was watching me I would be very upset...not because they're watching but because they're wasting tax dollars following me around...so I have come full circle since not everyone is planning something bad. And here's the kicker...have we sealed our borders north and south? are we monitoring who comes and goes? A few weeks ago I walked onto a train going into new york wearing a backpack and carrying a duffel bag...I wasnt stopped or asked what was in it. If we really are serious about keeping an eye open we should instead keep an eye on those who are entering and those who wish to become citizens...let the local color worry about the guy down the road who is talking to God on his two way radio.
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Natureboy
March 12, 2007, 8:48 a.m."Well personally I have nothing to hide"
How many Germans in the 1930s said the same thing? Down the road, having "nothing to hide" will mean -
Better not associate with anybody who DOES have anything to hide.
Better rat out anybody who says anything questionable.
Better not question anything yourself.
Better turn a blind eye when your neighbor is led off to the camps.
Look down the road and see where you are going. Others have been there before. It is not a nice place.
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Amazing1
Dec. 28, 2006, 9:13 p.m.The only hope we have is that in their bureaucratic bumbling, they get everything so messed up that it becomes unwieldy. Our only defense will be to give them false information at every opportunity so it will gum up the works even further.
As contrast said, I have nothing to hide. So why bother to waste the tax money?
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berkeley
Dec. 28, 2006, 9:25 p.m."i have nothing to hide." for all those who have ever said this, or even thought this, i suggest the following:
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fotoman1133406
Dec. 28, 2006, 11 p.m.Guys, this is a "bull-crap" thing here. It's VERY American. "big Brother" has been doin this garbage for god knows. It's called...POLITICS.
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jenorth
Dec. 29, 2006, 12:20 a.m.For quite some time, Congress has been sitting on a Bill that would make it manditory for all states to enroll in a national ID program.
The Democrats kept back pedaling away from making it happen.
A picture Id, with a real fingerprint, and a Drivers ID number.
When I was in the Marines, they finger printed everyone, and also took a Blood test. Now they Fingerprint, take a blood test, and DNA.
250 million people would be required to be installed into a national database.
At Birth, kids are already foot printed.
Thousands upon thousands of individuals have been identified through the military over the years, and already belong to a national database.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why everyone is scream over this.
Identity fraud would almost completely disappear.
Illegals would be forced out in the open. They wouldn't be able to get a national ID.
DNA, and Finger prints would cut down on crime.
Only and Idiot would be dumb enough to leave behind their National Database DNA
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BravoSierra
Dec. 29, 2006, 1:42 a.m.The database itself isn't the problem. We could get tremendous medical and other beneficial research from such a database. What the problem is, is this administration's willingness to use such databases to violate the rights of citizens, to misuse the database and to use pseudo-science and pseudo-religious thinking that borders on voodoo instead of the actual science necessary to validly analyze databases. The lack of oversight, the willingness to call someone a "terrorist" and deprive them of due process, etc. combined with invalid science is the problem. What we need is adequate oversight. What we get is circular logic that we can't have oversight because everything is too secret to scrutinize for legitimacy and validity.
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BravoSierra
Dec. 29, 2006, 3:02 a.m.jenorth, what most people don't realize is that the US Marines have an organization with some of the highest integrity and strongest ethical bases in the world. They aren't perfect but they sure as heck are lots better than the civilian world. I've seen so much fraud and distorted use of data since being in the civilian sector that it's frightening. We actually learn to be quite trusting of authority in the Marines compared to out here. The place is crawling, greedy, power hungry people who wouldn't hesitate to use this data to control people.
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SamMyam
Dec. 29, 2006, 2:15 a.m.The parallels between the '30s in Germany and the '00s in this country are chilling, yes. Everybody goes nuts when you say that, but it's very easily verifiable.
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darkdragon7261
Dec. 29, 2006, 2:16 a.m.I don't feel any safer knowing that the government could be spying on me without my knowledge. I would hate to be falsely accused of something I didn't do. The problem with the government is that they are way too nosy when it comes to butting into people's business. It's a violation of our rights to live like normal Americans.
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BravoSierra
Dec. 29, 2006, 3:03 a.m.The national licensing examination for psychologists states profiling is invalid for predicting individual behavior. The scientific evidence against profiling is so strong that it is illegal for a psychologist to testify as to an individual's "dangerousness" in a court of law. Also, after doing database analytics to profile customers of Forture 500 companies for 6 years I find that most of these efforts lead to invalid profiles. Theoretically, it can be done properly but most mathematicians, statasticians, computer scientists and behavior scientists don't have the skills to do it. Research shows that when they do create a "profile" they have generally projected their own fantasy onto the person they are profiling.
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BravoSierra
Dec. 29, 2006, 3:03 a.m.What this means is, the typical law enforcement official is making a value judgment about the people he has data on more often than he/she is making a valid judgment. These systems must have independent scientific and legal oversight to prevent abuses.
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PEACE604
Dec. 29, 2006, 4:52 a.m.Seems that the uneducated rednecks found in other forums are not here. They must not know about this spying situation yet. lol. But they know who they will vote for.
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okitech
Dec. 29, 2006, 5:53 a.m.odd enough is that alot of this is no secret...it is that the truthers mostly bandwagon jumpers find one area and claim they have exposed something when along all this information and intentions has been made public from day one. the true secrets are those that the coprations keep and those intentions, who knew you could be sent to jail off of your google cookies?
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HMMace
Dec. 29, 2006, 7:58 a.m.Well- if they had been watching the gov of Illinois, george ryan alitle closer, they might have caught him with egg onb his gace a lot earlier...maybe befor he became governor...if he is convicted, he should lose all his pension, and be fined his net worth..after all--they always said--"crime does not pay"...if he is a crooked politician--he should not gain from it..
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pewter
Dec. 29, 2006, 8:08 a.m.Sad, but we created this monster and CANNOT now destroy it.People keep asking for the government to help with money, food, all kinds of programs.So,the government does and then takes it a step further.But we keep coming back for more. We are the Dr. Frankenstein's and the government is the monster.When the people start to chase the monster around with sticks and fire to destroy it, we get our freedom back from the monster.Butwe will create antoher monster.Everytime we complain about something, a new monster is created.Can't live with them can't live without them.I believe I should be on a list because of my travel habits.I fly about 200k miles a year, domestic and overseas&change flights constantly.I have some Middle Eastern blood in me.Yet, I have not been stopped ever for anything.Are they watching me? Who knows.If they are and they are not stopping me it, then maybe they have it right.If they are and they are not stopping me, maybe they have it wrong. I am not paranoid, yet.
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HMMace
Dec. 29, 2006, 8:09 a.m.Well, there are so many crooks out there, we need a lot of watchers...As for the "innocent" part-- just a bunch of crap--they can listen to my phone calls, read my emails all they want...they would just be wasting thier time,,They can not get promoted when they waste thier time..it is the crooks that do not like being watched...or listened to...so the more the crooks hollar..the more they will look at them.......So nice of you to bring yourself to thier attention..
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Donnaich
Dec. 29, 2006, 9:01 a.m.I disagree...
There are some people who are not "exhibitionists" that prefer to keep their lives PRIVATE, even though they aren't doing anything wrong. They should be able to EXPECT privacy.
Besides, it isn't the crooks "hollering", for exactly the reason you state... they could call attention to themselves. Better to lay low.
These are the types of "arguments" used by those who WANT to misuse the information, because it "justifies" their intrusions into your life.
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pewter
Dec. 29, 2006, 8:33 a.m.Like I said, I travel alot, so I am sure I have been watched. I am not worried about it. I look at this way. If they catch one person, it was worth it $ wise. We complain when something goes wrong, when something bad happens we blame the government, the same government we then look to for help. When will people get it. Times are different today. Different times mean different measures. I believe doing something is better than doing nothing. It is just that they have to get the something and do it right and for the right reason. We need a watch dog to watch the watch politicians. Someone or something that has no interest monitarily in it.
Has anyone been hurt from this yet?
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DukeEsq
Dec. 29, 2006, 9:25 a.m.I would like to see the government make more of an effort to track foreigners who overstay their visas. That said, I don't have a problem with this program on privacy grounds. No one has a reasonable expectation of privacy in traveling abroad.
The "government is the bogeyman" mentality is completely bogus. All they're doing is using info already in their data bases for analysis. If they failed to do somethong like this and another 9/11 happened, you people would all be lambasting the government for neglience (unless, of course, the President was a democrat).
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jumpmaster
Dec. 29, 2006, 9:47 a.m.So all of you who are against this program are also against gun control.
Would that be correct?
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