Poll: Civilian Death Toll In Iraq May Top 1 Million »
Posted by: TimALoftis 11 months, 1 week ago105 Comments Report this Story
ORB said it drew its conclusion from responses to the question about those living under one roof: "How many members of your household, if any, have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq since 2003?"
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Daylight11 months, 1 week ago
dhamilton69
Yea Carter is my hero...
dhamilton69
Yea Carter is my hero..
I truly love it when he bash's the US while over seas...
That's because Carter is a person with a clear conscience and he knows the psychology of the people around the world and when they question him the American foreign policy and the American plutocracy which they love to interpret as Democracy, he has to tell them that, what some of the Bush and his administration up to is not approved by the vast majority of American people. I see him as the only American with a backbone and he is honest and never ashamed to speak the truth, so he is my American hero.
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injest11 months, 1 week ago
The actual question and the breakdown without the spin
http://www.opinion.co.uk/index.aspx
QHow many members of your household, if any, have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq since 2003
None 78%
One 16%
Two 5%
Three 1%
Four or more 0.002%
Given that from the 2005 census there are a total of 4,050,597 households this data suggests a total of 1,220,580 deaths since the invasion in 2003.
Extrapolations are not a good measure for this kind of thing.
Example, the 1992 LA Riots, 50 to 60 dead, 2000 injured, 3600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings.
Using Extrapolations assumes the same thing occurred in every city north to south east to west in the USA with similar results based on population. Guess what, that didn't happen. A much better way is to count actual numbers.
Anti war site Iraq body count puts the numbers at 72K â;; 78K.
BTW why would someone use extrapolations when actual numbers are available?
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Mr-opinion11 months, 1 week ago
I'm sure the numbers are definately skewed, and many bodies counted multiple times, as the same family members may have been included in the reply by multiple branches of the family tree.
But there is little doubt that the number is high, and very likely considerably hight than any 'geonocide of Sadams' all in the name of democracy and freedom (being fasecious - should have said Americanization - or better Bushification - whatever).
Way too many people, and I'm positive its more than 75K, on all sides of this battle (and there are more than two) have lost their lives do to one man's ego (and I didn't mean jackass Sadam)
PS - why would an Anti-war site minimize losses, that would be counter productive.
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kobzikov11 months, 1 week ago
Breakdown without spin?
That's a laugh. What do you call framing a national poll done in 15 out of 18 governorates in Iraq with your perverted extrapolation of LA riot statistics to the rest of US?
Know anyone who has done this to gauge civilian deaths in US in 1992 other than yourself? If so, then provide a legitimate source. Not to mention that LA riots were a one time occurrence, while the war in Iraq is kind of an ongoing thing, isn't it?
And the link for the ORB study is
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?...
The survey wasn't even conducted in Karbala, Anbar or Irbil. Then the numbers would have been even higher.
"why would someone use extrapolations when actual numbers are available?"
Iraq body count counts almost exclusively deaths that are reported in Western media. Do you honestly think the Western media that was so impartial prior to the war reports every Iraqi death? Not to mention that they lack security to even visit some provinces.
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blowback11 months, 1 week ago
> BTW why would someone use extrapolations when actual numbers are available?
.
Donald Rumsfeld: "We don't do civilian body counts."
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Tommy Franks: "We don't do civilian body counts."
.
Answer your question?
Actual numbers ARE NOT and WERE NOT available.
And they NEVER will be.
All that's left is extrapolation.
NOBODY was counting.
It was the admin's policy from the start.
I'd like you to tell me why.
.
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Aurinkohirvi11 months, 1 week ago
Injest wrote: "BTW why would someone use extrapolations when actual numbers are available?"
Because the Iraq Body Count Project mainly lists civilian deaths announced IN THE ENGLISH WRITTEN MEDIA. The majority of the deaths go unreported, and more so unreported in English. It is not a reliable source of estimating real total death toll, but is a way to estimate the MINIMUM death toll.
While the study made by the Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health, is the most scientifically accurately done study about the death toll, and "reputable researchers have accepted the Lancet study's results as valid with virtually no dissent."
"The Lancet" that published the study, is the most prestigious BRITISH medical journal.
655,000 Iraqis killed as a result of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq
http://www.antiwar.com/jamail/?articleid=9859
Iraqbodycount.org data sources
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/about/methods/2
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HistoricallyCorrect11 months, 1 week ago
Iraq Body Count only counts deaths which can be explicitly confirmed. There are plenty more deaths that do not have sources confirming them that have happened, but IBC hasn't counted them because they don't follow the sites policy.
You're right though, 72,000 people is such a paltry number of deaths, really it's a shame it isn't any higher. Let's not forget the over 1,000,000 displaced too. Ha ha, those poor suckers have a long way to walk to find their new homes, lol!
Makes me sick, it really does.
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StarLord11 months, 1 week ago
Good points, all. But remember that in the chaos that still (4 years on) engulfs Iraq, getting accurate bodycounts is not going to be easy. Given the ongoing nature of the conflict, I tend to believe that the 72-78,000 are an example of serious under-reporting.
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NelsonR11 months, 1 week ago
Our dysfunctional government under Bush said in his speech the Iraqi desire our presence. The liar, most Iraqi's want us out and Bush knows it yet the majority illiterate American, who doesn't know where Malta is, accepts Bush as their Commander in Chief.
Allow the average American to live like an Iraqi for just one day and maybe sanity will prevail but for now I must accept the Roman empire falling into the backwaters of a Louisiana swamp.
Bush is Satan and the antichrist religions speak of.
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possum776911 months, 1 week ago
Look at it like this. In the timeframe of the German Nazi regime,circa 1933-1945; (and I use the word "German" to differentiate from the current nazi regime,although it is a continuation of the same, just simply on American soil.), was not just six million jews,but 20 million russians, and untold ethnic cleansing throughout Europe.
The loss of life that can be attributed to the same family and players continues till this day.
I say that the current amerikan nazi regime has killed far more than just 1 million Iraqis,just look at all our covert wars and regime changes that have resulted in untold lives lost,and decades of time being wasted until those various countries(and there are many!) were able to be a going concern again. (Drinking a tost to Senor Allende.)
Wake up to what is happenning.
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dwemm11 months, 1 week ago
Wait-you're not including the numbers of resistance fighters throuout Europe (call em "insurgents"), bombing victims in all the countries involved, such as the citizens of Dresden and London and Nagasaki. Non-military casualties are always the hardest to track. I tend to say that the number is probably close to the truth. Certainly more than the 12,000 Iraqi civilians that the administration admits to must have died for no reason.
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dhamilton6911 months, 1 week ago
The problem is the source..... This article has been proven wrong, however, you pin heads don't want to see it. As long as it supports your hatered of the US and supports the enemies of this country. If this is not true, then tell my why there is absolutely no difference between what you are saying the Bin Laden or anyother of our enemies????
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DRK111 months, 1 week ago
injest:
does your 72 to 78 thousand dead include deaths due directly to our destruction of their infrastructure?
1.deaths due to illness caused by lack of potable water and a destroyed sewer system.
2.destruction of their power system--110 degree heat with no water or cooling system.
3.lack of medical personnel and supplies to treat wounded and the sick.
we could go on but I think you get my point.
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53vortec11 months, 1 week ago
What complete and utter claptrap.
With those figures, that would indicate an average of over 600 civilian deaths per day since the start of the war.
Just how is it you folks believe that this number could be amassed? Our troops' aim isn't that bad. I saw a number of times where US and coalition forces put their own safety at risk to prevent the injury of innocents.
Your opinions about the current administration aside, to believe that our soldiers on the ground are either that incompetent or that cruel is ridiculous.
FWIW, the only innocent Iraqis I knew that were killed during the war died at the hands of terrorists.
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MiraJane11 months, 1 week ago
I can't believe this.
Instead of focusing on the fact that the death toll of Iraqi civilians has reached horrorific numbers, people here are leaving comments bashing the methodology of gathering the number of the dead.
Guess what?
IT DOESN'T MATTER how the body count was done.
IT IS TOO MANY DEAD, STUPID.
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capecoralM11 months, 1 week ago
Are the deaths of innocent people unjustly being blamed on the US troops? Should the fact that terrorist suicide bombers, insurgents, and ethnic cleansing accounts for a majority of the deaths be blamed on the troops.
Where the hell were all the people pointing out the tragic deaths of Iraqi civilians when Saddam was filling mass graves with as many as 500,000 Children, women and men? Oh yea they were supporting Clinton and all of the Democrat(ic)s who were saying the EXACT same thing as Bush administration officials did about Saddam and passing the Iraq Liberation Act calling for the removal of Saddam. They were supporting Clinton who was planning his own invasion. And now that Bush actually did what they ALL talked about throughout the 1990's they all say "Bush lied".
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Daylight11 months, 1 week ago
So called civilized world should be ashamed of the uncivilized behavior of their leaders. Is civilized world means killing millions of people for 3000 deaths? They supposed to have been killed by 19 people who happened to be Muslims and all of them died in that attack. The only proof is the concocted evidence of the intelligent agencies which is funded by the government to carry out terrorist activities throughout the world. This is not the civilized world, this should be called uncivilized pol pot's world. The Western world cannot be called civilized world, because they promote corruption and unrest around the world for world dominance under the pretext of freedom and Democracy.
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GWHayduke11 months, 1 week ago
Mr Diarrhea,
Your insight is astounding! The West isnt doing the majority of the killing!?! Did you forget the mass bombings and the resulting mass killings? Or are you conveniently only speaking about recent activity?
The terrorists kill because they hate freedom? That reminds me of Steve Martin in "The Jerk". A sniper was shooting at him but was hitting oil cans behind him. The Jerk is so stupid that he insists "HE HATES THESE CANS!!!"
If you are so devoid of critical thought that you believe terrorism is about hatred of freedom, you could probably get a cabinet job in the current administration.
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AnteUp11 months, 1 week ago
USD ~
"Muslim cohorts who hate Iraqi's for wanting to vote in a coalition government and live in peace" -
I can't believe you said that. In the current, "BLAME THE IRAQI'S" sentiment coursing through both parties - Republican AND Democrat - haven't you heard that WE (THE USA) should remove al-Malaki? Hillary, Levin and tons of Republicans didn't call for an election for the Iraqi's to vote in a new leader. No, WE must replace him because he's not being helpful to us. So, explain how that is freedom of choice for the people of Iraq? Sounds oh-so much like colonialism. We prop up someone of their own nationality and then WE TELL THEM WHAT TO DO - with the express understanding that they had best not displease US!
Do you deny that that is exactly what the government of the United States feels entitled to do? And DON'T reference
how much our young men and women have given FOR Iraqi's.
They were sold a bill of goods about HELPING Iraqi's.
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sotiris-k11 months, 1 week ago
Are you proud you find yourself joking about the accuracy of the rough anyway study when you very well know that over 4000 coalition soldiers have sacrified their lives,28000 have been wounded some of whom with implications that will bravely carry and try to overcome with inner strength and the help of loved ones for the rest of their lives? You immediately can deduce from that that the iraqis are 5 times over that in just their security/army forces (if you pay attention to the news and documentaries).Their wounded will be of a higher probability to die due to worse medical care . Just their security forces therefore will be over 20000 deaths (those are bare minimums lower possible limits) . Now how many times in the past 1640 days you have heard that 100 people died in an explosion or 50 died in one city while 30 died in another the very same day. I have seen numbers that bring the civilian deaths to several thousands per month. The US soldiers deaths are about 3.26 per day this year.
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sotiris-k11 months, 1 week ago
That 3.26 is unfortunately worse than the total average of about 2.5. So clearly we are not at the best period of the 4 years currently. We are not at the worse either . But the population continues to suffer daily violence at the rate of over 100 deaths per day. This easy to notice number alone puts the explosion related deaths only to about 160000 since the beginning. Now how about the other side the criminals and the terrorists and the nationalists . Sure the vast majority deserve their deaths (only when you start to respect the humanity of your enemy you can begin to win this ) but it should be comparable to the iraqi security forces deaths or in fact quite worse due to inferior resources and nonexistent medical support . Is that another 50000?
How about the deaths of children? (you can expect infant mortality rate to skyrocket in war time). How about the death of those that because they cant live properly enough improved their probability to die from nonviolent causes.
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AnteUp11 months, 1 week ago
unome2 ~
Well, I can't buy that - he's a newbie to Neoconservatism -
and frankly I don't think he is bright enough. They say
he is an uncomplicated guy.....unscrupulous even as Governor of Texas, yes - but I can't imagine him capable of the long range planning that would have needed.
But Cheney, Richard Perle, Rumsfeld, Cambone, Addington,
Eliot Abrams, Wolfowitz with the Neocon press to add
credibility..........There is absolutely NOTHING I would
put past them.
I don't know about WTC - but the Pentagon plane?
Go to WhatReallyHappened and search for the pictures.
I am stunned that so many intelligent people would stick
to a story that is completely unbelievable!
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thegemacogroup11 months, 1 week ago
umome2 - You my friend are truly SICK and anyone that beleaves that
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sotiris-k11 months, 1 week ago
Bush may have not knocked down the towers but he did knock down America and played the Bin Laden / oil company interests / China-India emergence unquestioned , technology-science abandonment game like the perfect traitor.
The good news is that he will be soon over. Just 10 months before the American nightmare is over, make sure, if you are a cold money hunter of opportunity, that you load up on long term nasdaq solid companies leaps and buy dollar futures because the eagle will be back once the day of treason sees its long awaited sunset... But if you are a lot more than that, a true patriot and citizen of the planet, start planning how the opportunity that will emerge will find in your hands a true creative force who will personally remind the world that in its original spirit America stands for real freedom, justice , scientific innovation and a hand for friendship to all mankind and its prosperity under the guidance of logic and the respect of individualism.
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zman11 months, 1 week ago
What a Legacy this President has - he's responsible for 1 million Iraqi citizens killed for what? We never should have gone there and how can we as true Americans allow the slaughter to continue on our watch. We cannot. We have put Iraq into a Civil War that may not end for many years - it is this presidents fault. What a putrid Legacy.
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unome211 months, 1 week ago
When I was a young man in school we would watch films on WW2 and the Holocaust and I would think how on earth did the German people allow their Government to commit such atrocities. What kind of false fear would drive sane man to accept this evil. How on Earth do people fall victim to inhumanity and genocide by their own leaders and do nothing.
Unfortunitely, Now I know.
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Locky1211 months, 1 week ago
NO you don't know! Hilter confiscated all guns and therefore had no worry of anybody opposing his plans! More importantly the Treaty Of Versailles screwed the Germans so much that a new war seemed to be the only way to change things and it wasn't hard to convince the citizenry of such!
Bush's biggest weakness is that nobody has ANY memory of the entire 1990's when EVERYBODY said Saddam had to go! Saddam had to go! Now he's gone and WE'LL NEVER KNOW HOW SAFE WE REALLY ARE WITHOUT HIM! All anybody on this lousy board does is blame Bush for a failed and illegal war of which it is NEITHER!
The surge WORKED! Get over it. It is so sick that you people on this board think it's a great thing if lose this war and come home in shame. God forbid we actually win this thing, make Iraq a favorable country to the U.S. and *Gasp* Bush proves YOU wrong!!!
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Aurinkohirvi11 months, 1 week ago
Did they show you the films of Western Allied death camps, where hundreds of thousands German civilians and POWs were killed?
Probably not. Because that was a tabo and the victors write the history. We did hear later that the Soviets annihilated Germans in their camps, but only now the news of western allied death camps have re-surfaced.
What do you think of the Germans now, after you find the Americans, British and French did the same? Though it is sad it happened, it's kind of good: now you must face the fact that the same terrible behavior happened both sides, and both sides were just human.
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Was Ike Responsible for the Deaths of Hundreds of Thousands of German POW's?
http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html
Did the Allies Starve Millions of Germans?
http://www.serendipity.li/hr/bacque01.htm
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mrbeacon11 months, 1 week ago
I think the biggest mistake that many people are making here are expectations you're making of this foreign culture. Iraqis are not American or Western. Prior to the invasion of Iraq about 100 thousand people were ritualistically murdered in Iraq. We used Western words to describe these ritual murders before and after the invasion of Iraq. The Sunnis and Shiites are have a drawn out election tribal style war that was on going. The Americans come to liberate this election process? Now they are caught up with this socio-political ritual election process. Each American soldier costs a million dollars to train, use electronic surveillance software harden soldier positions automate the war machine. For each troop invest 10% ($100,000) on surveillance electronics. Save men money take 60% percent of your troops home and automate the rest. No need to shed your own blood. This is not callus, its just seeing this for what it is.
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mrbeacon11 months, 1 week ago
Actually the previous death per year in Iraq was 100 thousand per year! Not cumulative, but annually! Thus the death rate increased by about 20%. Besides the country had a dictator, despite this rule the tribal like warfare continued unabated. This faction process now has new players and the American have put in there own candidate for Mob ruler. Another interesting fact is that EU benefited greatly with the deal the UN worked out with Iraq 'oil for food program'. I believe the deal must be off. No wonder why European nations didn't support the war. Who wants to lose their cheap oil supply? Cleary it was not about to the US that was as important as it was to slow down EU economic growth.
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hyperbola11 months, 1 week ago
You shouldget out and about more often so your level of ignorance is reduced. There are still a few americvans telling the truth. For example, Paul Volcker rminded us that the bushie cronies were the chief profiteers from "oil for food".
The Quiet Oil-for-Food Scandal
We aren't going to hear much about the corporations that paid bribes in the Oil-for-Food scandal because Bush's family, friends and closest advisors are in it knee-deep..
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