This story has mostly positive ratings. 86 votes / No sinks
Turkey Mediates Peace Talks Between Israel and Syria
Do No Evil – Israel and Syria Wednesday said they are holding indirect peace talks through Turkish mediators -- the first official confirmation of contacts between the longtime enemies.
n statements issued minutes apart, the two governments said they "have declared their intent to conduct these talks in good faith and with an open mind," with a goal of reaching "a comprehensive peace." Both nations thanked Turkey for its help, and Turkey issued its own confirmation. Muslim Turkey has good ties with both Israel and Syria.
Most people who comment 'negatively' about Israel simply comment because everyone else seems to forget that Israel commits the same atrocities that are committed against Israel.
Those same people will be (or should be) happy at any chance for peace and reconciliation in the ME.
Pretty impossible when the side against Israel follows the Quran that tells Muslims to only ACT like they are friends of Jews or, be cut off from Allah if they ARE friends of Jews (see Quran 3:28).
"Pretty impossible when the side against Israel follows the Quran that tells Muslims to only ACT like they are friends of Jews or, be cut off from Allah if they ARE friends of Jews (see Quran 3:28)."
More of your usual rant.
" 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him."
Deuteronomy 13:6-8
Plenty more of "kill anyone who's not a Christian" in the Bible. Taking little bits and pieces from here and there out of context never reflects the ideals of a religion. If you're going to claim it does, then you can't pick and choose. All religions have these little horrors.
5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him.
9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.
Yep, those are narly scriptures for sure. But, WHERE do they tell a Christian in THIS day and age, to break treaties with non-Christians, and, after, say, Easter, kill non-Christians like Quran 9:1-5 commands in such away that seems MORE than just history? Let us know, O "I'm not a Muslim". Lying Taqqiya? Yeah, I think it is, sorry, Dionys. LOVE to be able to believe what you say. Not your fault. Quran's fault.
Oh please. Claiming the Qur'an says one thing (which it doesn't) while the Bible is just "history" and doesn't "really" command people to kill those who aren't Christians is the most disingenuous garbage I've seen spew out of your mouth yet.
If you're going to spew garbage about the Qur'an, you should be able to quote it and then discuss the history, setting and original language. Surah 9:1-5 (It's interesting you omit 6, where Muslims are required to grant 'Pagans' safe asylum should they ask for it) -- anyhow Surah 9:1-5 refers to 'Pagans.' Jews and Christians, according to Muslim Tradition, are not 'Pagans.' Surah 9:1-5 says nothing about Easter or killing Christians, Jews or even Pagans.
It's always amazing how everyone chooses to forget (conveniently) that the God of Islam is the God of the Jews is the God of Christianity.
"Oh please. Claiming the Qur'an says one thing (which it doesn't) while the Bible is just "history" and doesn't "really" command people to kill those who aren't Christians is the most disingenuous garbage I've seen spew out of your mouth yet." So, where are the Bible scriptures for Christians to kill non-Christians?
"If you're going to spew garbage about the Qur'an, you should be able to quote it and then discuss the history, setting and original language. Surah 9:1-5 (It's interesting you omit 6, where Muslims are required to grant 'Pagans' safe asylum should they ask for it) -- anyhow Surah 9:1-5 refers to 'Pagans.' Jews and Christians, according to Muslim Tradition, are not 'Pagans.' Surah 9:1-5 says nothing about Easter or killing Christians, Jews or even Pagans." So, kill any pagan who ISN'T a Christian or Jew? What about Quran 5:29-30?
"It's always amazing how everyone chooses to forget (conveniently) that the God of Islam is the God of the Jews is the God of Christianity." How come He/They tells Christians to accept Christ as Savior to make it into Heaven, and tells Muslims to do five times a day of butt in
the air, or, dying in try to kill those who don't believe like you?
Where have I lied? YOU are the one who says he's not a Muslim, yet, sounds like muhairi8. ARE you? By the way, IF you aren't a Muslim, list five reasons as to WHY you aren't a Muslim. IF you can, I'll think that maybe you AREN'T lying. Until then, I'll have to keep on thinking you are a Jihadist using the blessings of Quran 3:28 and 16:106 to LIE. So, Mr. "I'm not a Muslim"...LIST five reasons as to why you AREN'T a Muslim. LIST them...I DARE you. :)
> Oh please. Claiming the Qur'an says one thing (which it doesn't) while the Bible is just "history" and doesn't "really" command people to kill those who aren't Christians is the most disingenuous garbage I've seen spew out of your mouth yet.
I agree that such claims are garbage. The fact is, however, that tens of thousands Islamist terrrorists supported by tens of Millions Muslims DELIBERATELY attack innocent men, women and children in the name of Allah and Islam. Christians, apparently, stopped doing it for some 300 years or more.
Some people "hear" things they're willing to hear. The interesting detail in Dionys' response is that he DID NOT HEAR my statement about tens of thousands Islamist terrrorists supported by tens of Millions Muslims DELIBERATELY attack innocent men, women and children in the name of Allah and Islam.
I'm pretty sure he read and understood you very clearly, Thinker22, but, a Jihadist's tactic is to ignore, change the subject, accuse of lying, and say the green grass isn't green IF saying such a thing supports Islam.
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Cor.6:14-17
"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10
I wonder if the 45 British Islamic MEDICAL doctors who tried to set off bombs at two Scottish airports would agree with your take of Quran 9:1-5? May YOU continue to think they don't mean what they mean to me, those doctors, and Bin Ladin, because, really, I'd rather fight you in threads than have you go to pieces trying to go the way of suicide bomber, O "I'm not a Muslim".
"Yep, those are narly scriptures for sure. But, WHERE do they tell a Christian in THIS day and age, to break treaties with non-Christians, and, after, say, Easter, kill non-Christians like Quran 9:1-5 commands in such away that seems MORE than just history?"
Have you read Surah 9:1-5? or even 9:1-6? Obviously not. It has nothing about killing non-Muslims in it. It has nothing about breaking treaties *except* where faith in the treaty has been broken by the other side.
Commentary from A. Yusef Ali's version of the Qur'an:
"The Pagans [which don't include Christians or Jews]...frequently made treaties of mutual alliance with the Muslims. The Muslims scripilously observed their part, but the Pagans violated their part again and again when it suited them. After some years' experience it became imperative to denounce such treaties alltogether. This was done in due form, with four months' notice, and a chance was given to those who faithfully obeserved their pledges, to continue their alliance."
Not only is your reading (well.. we all know you didn't actually read Surah 9) an out and out lie, but your claim that it is meant for modern use, rather than the fact that it is an historical reference just as you claim the Bible passages are, is.. yes.. another lie.
"The Pagans [which don't include Christians or Jews]...frequently made treaties of mutual alliance with the Muslims. The Muslims scripilously observed their part, but the Pagans violated their part again and again when it suited them." So, Muhammed LEARNED to dissolve treaties because of the PAGANS!?!?
"After some years' experience it became imperative to denounce such treaties alltogether." Muhammed DID learn to dissolve treaties from the Pagans!
"This was done in due form, with four months' notice, and a chance was given to those who faithfully obeserved their pledges, to continue their alliance." Trying to make it sound like an historic event, I see. MAY MOST Muslims believe you here, Dionys.
"Not only is your reading (well.. we all know you didn't actually read Surah 9) an out and out lie, but your claim that it is meant for modern use," Sounds like it to me. The 45 British MEDICAL doctors probably thought so also.
"rather than the fact that it is an historical reference just as you claim the Bible passages are, is.. yes.. another lie." Well, IF I'm lying, AS you claim, WHY do I call attention to things people can read for themselves? Don't you think people, if they wanted to, could SEE if what I was presenting was true or not? HOW does that make me a liar?
"The sacred duty of fulfilling all obligations of every kind, to Muslims and non-Muslims, in public as well as private life, is a cardinal feature of muslim ethics."
These are the commentaries meant for *Muslims* to read. These are the teachings of their Prophet and subsequent teachers.
It is apparent to me, and to anyone that actually reads the passages you've claimed to have read (but which you obviously haven't) that you are the liar. Which explains your obsession with lying in general.
"YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
PICKTHAL: Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
SHAKIR: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement." What's this "Freedom of immunity", folks? What's that mean to you?
YUSUFALI: Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance)." Sounds like Satan, who is a deceiver in MY faith.
"SHAKIR: So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers."
YUSUFALI: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans." But...why...WHY, O "I'm not a Muslim"?
"If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve," Sounds like the breaking of a treaty is due UNbelief, folks. What ELSE could it be here that a treaty is dissolved by the Muslims?
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). Ok...THAT sounds reasonable. Let's continue.
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Read it again, folks. This war on pagans is because "they reject faith". Or, is that a lie like the sun "running to a resting place"?
"YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know." Nice to see Allah being kind to the ignorant pagans, atleast.
That is not part of the Christian religion. Christians do not, repeat, do not use the old testament as a blueprint for their religion. Quoting the old testament and trying to make a point about Christianity only shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion.
"That is not part of the Christian religion. Christians do not, repeat, do not use the old testament as a blueprint for their religion. Quoting the old testament and trying to make a point about Christianity only shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion."
I agree with you that it's not something Christians embrace as something they should follow in their daily life. However saying that Christians do not use the OT as a blueprint for their religion is ridiculous. Look at all the evangelicals who refer to Leviticus over and over for their anti-homosexual rants. Or who refer to the ten commandments over Christ's beatitudes. Or refer to any number of OT horrors over the Great Commandment.
" point about Christianity only shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion."
More likely it shows your Pollyanna view of Christianity which only includes the good parts.
"I agree with you that it's not something Christians embrace as something they should follow in their daily life. However saying that Christians do not use the OT as a blueprint for their religion is ridiculous. Look at all the evangelicals who refer to Leviticus over and over for their anti-homosexual rants." That's worse than carving some infidel's head off to "Allahuachbar"?
"Or who refer to the ten commandments over Christ's beatitudes." Why, that's just HORRIBLE!?!? :)
"Or refer to any number of OT horrors over the Great Commandment." Ah...WHAT?!
" point about Christianity only shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion."
"More likely it shows your Pollyanna view of Christianity which only includes the good parts." Didn't you just try to sugar-coat Quran 9:1-5, O "I'm not a Muslim"?
Don't get me wrong, Wolfie -- I agree with you wholeheartedly that looking to the OT is just about the last thing a Christian should do when they want to model their life. Christ's life in the Gospels should be their one and only model. But that's not the reality of the majority of Christians who always look back to the OT.
Plus we have to remember that despite Christ leaving the path of Judaism from time to time he was a Jew for whom the OT served as a model.
Besides which, my point was not that this is what Christians completely believe and embrace as a guide to their actions. My point was that nearly every Holy text or sacred scripture contains within it small horrors that do not in any way reflect the reality of that religion's life in the world.
Exactly. The problem in any religion is the extremists. But I don't think it's a function of religion because extremists are to be found in every section of life, secular or religious. Unforuntately our media (because of the public demand) also tends to give extremists the loudest voice and widest coverage. And the public eats it up and then generalizes the small minority's viewpoint to that of the large majority. It's a dangerous thing.
Exactly. The problem in any religion is the extremists." When did you see an extremist Buddhist carve off a head to "Buddha is great"?
"But I don't think it's a function of religion because extremists are to be found in every section of life, secular or religious." When did a JW fly a plane into a buidling?
"Unforuntately our media (because of the public demand) also tends to give extremists the loudest voice and widest coverage." You just wish the world would ignore 45 British Islamic MEDICAL doctors, DON'T you, O "I'm not a Muslim"?
"And the public eats it up" Libs seem to have their head in the sand. So, I think you are off a bit.
"and then generalizes the small minority's viewpoint to that of the large majority." Thanks to taqqiya and not knowing who the peaceful are from the violent, how can it NOT be that way?
"It's a dangerous thing." Oh, I don't think you'll be put in a camp.
"But that's not the reality of the majority of Christians who always look back to the OT." Yeah, Christians do. How come we aren't stoning people to death though, O "I'm not a Muslim"?
It's called "taqqiya". Even though he says he's not a Muslim, he is using the same tactic to snow with words, change the subject, accuse of lying, and reverting to personal attack.
This means she's calling me a liar. Which is fine if she wants. If that's the only thing she can do then I guess she has to fall back on it again and again.
The fact is, though, if anyone actually goes and reads Surah 9:1-5,29,30 they will see that not only are you lying about what they contain but that it is apparent you've never read them. Nor have you read 3:28 which says nothing about lying, except perhaps in a modern interpretation by the Shi'a which says they may deny being a Muslim if their life is in danger. The Sunni, of course, say that lying is lying.
I never changed the subject. I addressed your lies about the Surah with direct quotes from the Qur'an and commentary on the Qur'an. I addressed your claims that the Bible doesn't contain such sayings with quotes from the Bible.
You are the liar you claim Muslims to be and the worst kind of hatemonger.
"This means she's calling me a liar." Being that you talk like a Muslim, I DO find you hard to believe. Plus, you call ME a liar without evidence, which IS taqqiya.
"Which is fine if she wants. If that's the only thing she can do then I guess she has to fall back on it again and again." Yep, I pretty much push the taqqiya thing, alright. Aren't you glad I don't have much of an audience?
"The fact is, though, if anyone actually goes and reads Surah 9:1-5,29,30 they will see that not only are you lying about what they contain but that it is apparent you've never read them." Well, I posted 9:1-5 above for anyone who might be interested for starters.
"Nor have you read 3:28 which says nothing about lying,"
"except perhaps in a modern interpretation by the Shi'a which says they may deny being a Muslim if their life is in danger." Oh, so Shakir, Ali, and Pickthal are SHIITE? Well, PLEASE translate the ARABIC for us, O "I'm not a Muslim". :)
"The Sunni, of course, say that lying is lying." And say so, without evidence, apparently.
"I never changed the subject." :)
"I addressed your lies about the Surah with direct quotes from the Qur'an and commentary on the Qur'an." By Muslims who are probably PRO on the subject in MORE ways than one.
"I addressed your claims that the Bible doesn't contain such sayings with quotes from the Bible." Yeah, and you use them to divert attention away from Quran 9:1-5, 29, and 30.
"You are the liar you claim Muslims to be and the worst kind of hatemonger." WHERE have I showed any kind of hate toward Muslims? Direct people to my posts and threads so they can read it themselves, O "I'm not a Muslim".
80)
n statements issued minutes apart, the two governments said they "have declared their intent to conduct these talks in good faith and with an open mind," with a goal of reaching "a comprehensive peace." Both nations thanked Turkey for its help, and Turkey issued its own confirmation. Muslim Turkey has good ties with both Israel and Syria.
All those against Israel will hate this. At least this might mean Syria is coming to its senses. WAY TO GO!!! It worked between Israel and Egypt.
"All those against Israel will hate this."
Most people who comment 'negatively' about Israel simply comment because everyone else seems to forget that Israel commits the same atrocities that are committed against Israel.
Those same people will be (or should be) happy at any chance for peace and reconciliation in the ME.
Pretty impossible when the side against Israel follows the Quran that tells Muslims to only ACT like they are friends of Jews or, be cut off from Allah if they ARE friends of Jews (see Quran 3:28).
"Pretty impossible when the side against Israel follows the Quran that tells Muslims to only ACT like they are friends of Jews or, be cut off from Allah if they ARE friends of Jews (see Quran 3:28)."
More of your usual rant.
" 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him."
Deuteronomy 13:6-8
Plenty more of "kill anyone who's not a Christian" in the Bible. Taking little bits and pieces from here and there out of context never reflects the ideals of a religion. If you're going to claim it does, then you can't pick and choose. All religions have these little horrors.
Oh. Sorry.. Here's the whole lovely passage:
Deuteronomy 13:5-10
5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him.
9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.
10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Yep, those are narly scriptures for sure. But, WHERE do they tell a Christian in THIS day and age, to break treaties with non-Christians, and, after, say, Easter, kill non-Christians like Quran 9:1-5 commands in such away that seems MORE than just history? Let us know, O "I'm not a Muslim". Lying Taqqiya? Yeah, I think it is, sorry, Dionys. LOVE to be able to believe what you say. Not your fault. Quran's fault.
Oh please. Claiming the Qur'an says one thing (which it doesn't) while the Bible is just "history" and doesn't "really" command people to kill those who aren't Christians is the most disingenuous garbage I've seen spew out of your mouth yet.
If you're going to spew garbage about the Qur'an, you should be able to quote it and then discuss the history, setting and original language. Surah 9:1-5 (It's interesting you omit 6, where Muslims are required to grant 'Pagans' safe asylum should they ask for it) -- anyhow Surah 9:1-5 refers to 'Pagans.' Jews and Christians, according to Muslim Tradition, are not 'Pagans.' Surah 9:1-5 says nothing about Easter or killing Christians, Jews or even Pagans.
It's always amazing how everyone chooses to forget (conveniently) that the God of Islam is the God of the Jews is the God of Christianity.
"Oh please. Claiming the Qur'an says one thing (which it doesn't) while the Bible is just "history" and doesn't "really" command people to kill those who aren't Christians is the most disingenuous garbage I've seen spew out of your mouth yet." So, where are the Bible scriptures for Christians to kill non-Christians?
"If you're going to spew garbage about the Qur'an, you should be able to quote it and then discuss the history, setting and original language. Surah 9:1-5 (It's interesting you omit 6, where Muslims are required to grant 'Pagans' safe asylum should they ask for it) -- anyhow Surah 9:1-5 refers to 'Pagans.' Jews and Christians, according to Muslim Tradition, are not 'Pagans.' Surah 9:1-5 says nothing about Easter or killing Christians, Jews or even Pagans." So, kill any pagan who ISN'T a Christian or Jew? What about Quran 5:29-30?
"It's always amazing how everyone chooses to forget (conveniently) that the God of Islam is the God of the Jews is the God of Christianity." How come He/They tells Christians to accept Christ as Savior to make it into Heaven, and tells Muslims to do five times a day of butt in
the air, or, dying in try to kill those who don't believe like you?
"How come He/They tells Christians to accept Christ as Savior to make it into Heaven, and tells Muslims to do five times a day of butt in
the air, or, dying in try to kill those who don't believe like you? "
Are you really this ignorant? I almost believe you are. But then you lie a lot.
Where have I lied? YOU are the one who says he's not a Muslim, yet, sounds like muhairi8. ARE you? By the way, IF you aren't a Muslim, list five reasons as to WHY you aren't a Muslim. IF you can, I'll think that maybe you AREN'T lying. Until then, I'll have to keep on thinking you are a Jihadist using the blessings of Quran 3:28 and 16:106 to LIE. So, Mr. "I'm not a Muslim"...LIST five reasons as to why you AREN'T a Muslim. LIST them...I DARE you. :)
> Oh please. Claiming the Qur'an says one thing (which it doesn't) while the Bible is just "history" and doesn't "really" command people to kill those who aren't Christians is the most disingenuous garbage I've seen spew out of your mouth yet.
I agree that such claims are garbage. The fact is, however, that tens of thousands Islamist terrrorists supported by tens of Millions Muslims DELIBERATELY attack innocent men, women and children in the name of Allah and Islam. Christians, apparently, stopped doing it for some 300 years or more.
"Christians, apparently, stopped doing it for some 300 years or more."
Really? I've heard BushCo call Iraq both a Crusade and a Holy War along with a number of Generals.
You've heard "BushCo call Iraq both a Crusade and a Holy War". Really when?
Some people "hear" things they're willing to hear. The interesting detail in Dionys' response is that he DID NOT HEAR my statement about tens of thousands Islamist terrrorists supported by tens of Millions Muslims DELIBERATELY attack innocent men, women and children in the name of Allah and Islam.
I'm pretty sure he read and understood you very clearly, Thinker22, but, a Jihadist's tactic is to ignore, change the subject, accuse of lying, and say the green grass isn't green IF saying such a thing supports Islam.
Be seperate from non-Christians:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Cor.6:14-17
And the scripture from the Bible to tell Christians to LIE to those they aren't supposed to be yoked with?
Kill non-Christians:
"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10
Hypocrite.
Again, HOW does this tell a Christian to kill a non-Christian in this day and age like Quran 9:1-5, 29, 30 does with Muslims?
"Again, HOW does this tell a Christian to kill a non-Christian in this day and age like Quran 9:1-5, 29, 30 does with Muslims?"
See comments below. You are lying. Which explains your obsession with lying.
Surah 9:1-5, 29 or 30 don't say any of the things you claim. Which if you read them you would (well maybe you wouldn't) understand.
I wonder if the 45 British Islamic MEDICAL doctors who tried to set off bombs at two Scottish airports would agree with your take of Quran 9:1-5? May YOU continue to think they don't mean what they mean to me, those doctors, and Bin Ladin, because, really, I'd rather fight you in threads than have you go to pieces trying to go the way of suicide bomber, O "I'm not a Muslim".
"Yep, those are narly scriptures for sure. But, WHERE do they tell a Christian in THIS day and age, to break treaties with non-Christians, and, after, say, Easter, kill non-Christians like Quran 9:1-5 commands in such away that seems MORE than just history?"
Have you read Surah 9:1-5? or even 9:1-6? Obviously not. It has nothing about killing non-Muslims in it. It has nothing about breaking treaties *except* where faith in the treaty has been broken by the other side.
Commentary from A. Yusef Ali's version of the Qur'an:
"The Pagans [which don't include Christians or Jews]...frequently made treaties of mutual alliance with the Muslims. The Muslims scripilously observed their part, but the Pagans violated their part again and again when it suited them. After some years' experience it became imperative to denounce such treaties alltogether. This was done in due form, with four months' notice, and a chance was given to those who faithfully obeserved their pledges, to continue their alliance."
Not only is your reading (well.. we all know you didn't actually read Surah 9) an out and out lie, but your claim that it is meant for modern use, rather than the fact that it is an historical reference just as you claim the Bible passages are, is.. yes.. another lie.
"The Pagans [which don't include Christians or Jews]...frequently made treaties of mutual alliance with the Muslims. The Muslims scripilously observed their part, but the Pagans violated their part again and again when it suited them." So, Muhammed LEARNED to dissolve treaties because of the PAGANS!?!?
"After some years' experience it became imperative to denounce such treaties alltogether." Muhammed DID learn to dissolve treaties from the Pagans!
"This was done in due form, with four months' notice, and a chance was given to those who faithfully obeserved their pledges, to continue their alliance." Trying to make it sound like an historic event, I see. MAY MOST Muslims believe you here, Dionys.
"Not only is your reading (well.. we all know you didn't actually read Surah 9) an out and out lie, but your claim that it is meant for modern use," Sounds like it to me. The 45 British MEDICAL doctors probably thought so also.
"rather than the fact that it is an historical reference just as you claim the Bible passages are, is.. yes.. another lie." Well, IF I'm lying, AS you claim, WHY do I call attention to things people can read for themselves? Don't you think people, if they wanted to, could SEE if what I was presenting was true or not? HOW does that make me a liar?
Second commentary to Surah 9:
"The sacred duty of fulfilling all obligations of every kind, to Muslims and non-Muslims, in public as well as private life, is a cardinal feature of muslim ethics."
These are the commentaries meant for *Muslims* to read. These are the teachings of their Prophet and subsequent teachers.
It is apparent to me, and to anyone that actually reads the passages you've claimed to have read (but which you obviously haven't) that you are the liar. Which explains your obsession with lying in general.
"YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
PICKTHAL: Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
SHAKIR: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement." What's this "Freedom of immunity", folks? What's that mean to you?
"009.002
YUSUFALI: Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance)." Sounds like Satan, who is a deceiver in MY faith.
"SHAKIR: So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers."
009.003
YUSUFALI: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans." But...why...WHY, O "I'm not a Muslim"?
"If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve," Sounds like the breaking of a treaty is due UNbelief, folks. What ELSE could it be here that a treaty is dissolved by the Muslims?
009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). Ok...THAT sounds reasonable. Let's continue.
"009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Read it again, folks. This war on pagans is because "they reject faith". Or, is that a lie like the sun "running to a resting place"?
"YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know." Nice to see Allah being kind to the ignorant pagans, atleast.
Dionys
That is not part of the Christian religion. Christians do not, repeat, do not use the old testament as a blueprint for their religion. Quoting the old testament and trying to make a point about Christianity only shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion.
"That is not part of the Christian religion. Christians do not, repeat, do not use the old testament as a blueprint for their religion. Quoting the old testament and trying to make a point about Christianity only shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion."
I agree with you that it's not something Christians embrace as something they should follow in their daily life. However saying that Christians do not use the OT as a blueprint for their religion is ridiculous. Look at all the evangelicals who refer to Leviticus over and over for their anti-homosexual rants. Or who refer to the ten commandments over Christ's beatitudes. Or refer to any number of OT horrors over the Great Commandment.
" point about Christianity only shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion."
More likely it shows your Pollyanna view of Christianity which only includes the good parts.
"I agree with you that it's not something Christians embrace as something they should follow in their daily life. However saying that Christians do not use the OT as a blueprint for their religion is ridiculous. Look at all the evangelicals who refer to Leviticus over and over for their anti-homosexual rants." That's worse than carving some infidel's head off to "Allahuachbar"?
"Or who refer to the ten commandments over Christ's beatitudes." Why, that's just HORRIBLE!?!? :)
"Or refer to any number of OT horrors over the Great Commandment." Ah...WHAT?!
" point about Christianity only shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion."
"More likely it shows your Pollyanna view of Christianity which only includes the good parts." Didn't you just try to sugar-coat Quran 9:1-5, O "I'm not a Muslim"?
Don't get me wrong, Wolfie -- I agree with you wholeheartedly that looking to the OT is just about the last thing a Christian should do when they want to model their life. Christ's life in the Gospels should be their one and only model. But that's not the reality of the majority of Christians who always look back to the OT.
Plus we have to remember that despite Christ leaving the path of Judaism from time to time he was a Jew for whom the OT served as a model.
Besides which, my point was not that this is what Christians completely believe and embrace as a guide to their actions. My point was that nearly every Holy text or sacred scripture contains within it small horrors that do not in any way reflect the reality of that religion's life in the world.
I think we agree.
The problem are the extremists of any religion, any religion. So it seems it's not so much the religion that is at fault as the extremists.
Exactly. The problem in any religion is the extremists. But I don't think it's a function of religion because extremists are to be found in every section of life, secular or religious. Unforuntately our media (because of the public demand) also tends to give extremists the loudest voice and widest coverage. And the public eats it up and then generalizes the small minority's viewpoint to that of the large majority. It's a dangerous thing.
Exactly. The problem in any religion is the extremists." When did you see an extremist Buddhist carve off a head to "Buddha is great"?
"But I don't think it's a function of religion because extremists are to be found in every section of life, secular or religious." When did a JW fly a plane into a buidling?
"Unforuntately our media (because of the public demand) also tends to give extremists the loudest voice and widest coverage." You just wish the world would ignore 45 British Islamic MEDICAL doctors, DON'T you, O "I'm not a Muslim"?
"And the public eats it up" Libs seem to have their head in the sand. So, I think you are off a bit.
"and then generalizes the small minority's viewpoint to that of the large majority." Thanks to taqqiya and not knowing who the peaceful are from the violent, how can it NOT be that way?
"It's a dangerous thing." Oh, I don't think you'll be put in a camp.
"But that's not the reality of the majority of Christians who always look back to the OT." Yeah, Christians do. How come we aren't stoning people to death though, O "I'm not a Muslim"?
It's called "taqqiya". Even though he says he's not a Muslim, he is using the same tactic to snow with words, change the subject, accuse of lying, and reverting to personal attack.
"It's called "taqqiya"."
This means she's calling me a liar. Which is fine if she wants. If that's the only thing she can do then I guess she has to fall back on it again and again.
The fact is, though, if anyone actually goes and reads Surah 9:1-5,29,30 they will see that not only are you lying about what they contain but that it is apparent you've never read them. Nor have you read 3:28 which says nothing about lying, except perhaps in a modern interpretation by the Shi'a which says they may deny being a Muslim if their life is in danger. The Sunni, of course, say that lying is lying.
I never changed the subject. I addressed your lies about the Surah with direct quotes from the Qur'an and commentary on the Qur'an. I addressed your claims that the Bible doesn't contain such sayings with quotes from the Bible.
You are the liar you claim Muslims to be and the worst kind of hatemonger.
Let me know when you're ready to directly quote the Qur'an to support your lies. Instead of saying "Surah x:x says this" when it doesn't.
"This means she's calling me a liar." Being that you talk like a Muslim, I DO find you hard to believe. Plus, you call ME a liar without evidence, which IS taqqiya.
"Which is fine if she wants. If that's the only thing she can do then I guess she has to fall back on it again and again." Yep, I pretty much push the taqqiya thing, alright. Aren't you glad I don't have much of an audience?
"The fact is, though, if anyone actually goes and reads Surah 9:1-5,29,30 they will see that not only are you lying about what they contain but that it is apparent you've never read them." Well, I posted 9:1-5 above for anyone who might be interested for starters.
"Nor have you read 3:28 which says nothing about lying,"
Ahh...RIIIIIGHT! :)
"except perhaps in a modern interpretation by the Shi'a which says they may deny being a Muslim if their life is in danger." Oh, so Shakir, Ali, and Pickthal are SHIITE? Well, PLEASE translate the ARABIC for us, O "I'm not a Muslim". :)
"The Sunni, of course, say that lying is lying." And say so, without evidence, apparently.
"I never changed the subject." :)
"I addressed your lies about the Surah with direct quotes from the Qur'an and commentary on the Qur'an." By Muslims who are probably PRO on the subject in MORE ways than one.
"I addressed your claims that the Bible doesn't contain such sayings with quotes from the Bible." Yeah, and you use them to divert attention away from Quran 9:1-5, 29, and 30.
"You are the liar you claim Muslims to be and the worst kind of hatemonger." WHERE have I showed any kind of hate toward Muslims? Direct people to my posts and threads so they can read it themselves, O "I'm not a Muslim".